[et_pb_section fb_built=”1″ fullwidth=”on” admin_label=”Header Section” _builder_version=”4.9.10″ background_color=”#000000″ custom_padding=”|||” bottom_divider_style=”slant2″ bottom_divider_color=”#f8f8f8″ bottom_divider_height=”50px” locked=”off” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_fullwidth_header title=”AN INTERVIEW WITH THOMAS de Waal” text_orientation=”center” background_overlay_color=”rgba(0,0,0,0.4)” content_max_width_last_edited=”off|desktop” admin_label=”Contents” _builder_version=”4.14.7″ title_font=”Oswald|||on|||||” title_text_align=”left” title_font_size=”45px” title_letter_spacing=”0.05em” title_line_height=”1.5em” content_font=”Merriweather||||||||” content_font_size=”19px” subhead_font=”Oswald||||||||” subhead_text_align=”left” subhead_font_size=”20px” subhead_line_height=”1.9em” background_enable_color=”off” background_image=”https:\/\/onnik-krikorian.com\/new_site\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/08\/IMG004.jpg” parallax=”on” parallax_method=”on” custom_button_one=”on” button_one_text_size=”15px” button_one_bg_color=”#dca57d” button_one_border_width=”10px” button_one_border_color=”#dca57d” button_one_border_radius=”0px” button_one_letter_spacing=”3px” button_one_font=”Oswald|||on|” button_one_use_icon=”off” height=”500px” custom_margin=”0px||||false|false” custom_padding=”10%||5%||false|false” hover_enabled=”0″ title_font_size_tablet=”60px” title_font_size_phone=”40px” title_font_size_last_edited=”on|phone” custom_css_title=”padding-top: 10%|| ” button_one_border_color_hover=”#c99872″ button_one_border_radius_hover=”0px” button_one_letter_spacing_hover=”3px” button_one_bg_color_hover=”#c99872″ global_colors_info=”{}” button_one_text_size__hover_enabled=”off” button_two_text_size__hover_enabled=”off” button_one_text_color__hover_enabled=”off” button_two_text_color__hover_enabled=”off” button_one_border_width__hover_enabled=”off” button_two_border_width__hover_enabled=”off” button_one_border_color__hover_enabled=”on” button_one_border_color__hover=”#c99872″ button_two_border_color__hover_enabled=”off” button_one_border_radius__hover_enabled=”on” button_one_border_radius__hover=”0px” button_two_border_radius__hover_enabled=”off” button_one_letter_spacing__hover_enabled=”on” button_one_letter_spacing__hover=”3px” button_two_letter_spacing__hover_enabled=”off” button_one_bg_color__hover_enabled=”on” button_one_bg_color__hover=”#c99872″ button_two_bg_color__hover_enabled=”off” sticky_enabled=”0″][\/et_pb_fullwidth_header][\/et_pb_section][et_pb_section fb_built=”1″ admin_label=”Blog Section” _builder_version=”4.10.3″ background_color=”#f8f8f8″ custom_padding=”|0px||0px|true|false” locked=”off” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_row _builder_version=”4.9.7″ _module_preset=”default” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_column type=”4_4″ _builder_version=”4.9.4″ _module_preset=”default” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_text _builder_version=”4.10.3″ _module_preset=”default” text_font=”Merriweather||||||||” header_font=”Oswald||||||||” header_font_size=”26px” header_line_height=”2em” custom_margin=”-85px||||false|false” global_colors_info=”{}”]<\/p>\n
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\nThomas de Waal is the Caucasus Editor and Project Coordinator for\u00a0the Institute of War and Peace Reporting (IWPR) in London.\u00a0Having covered the Caucasus for the BBC World Service, his book on\u00a0the conflict in Nagorno Karabagh, “Black Garden: Armenia and\u00a0Azerbaijan through Peace and War,” will be published by New York\u00a0University Press in late 2002\/early 2003.<\/em><\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
This interview was held in Yerevan, Republic of Armenia, on 16\u00a0April 2002, by Onnik James Krikorian a day before de Waal presented a lecture on Western\u00a0policy in the Caucasus at the American University of Armenia.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n
<\/em><\/p>\n
<\/em><\/p>\n
ONNIK JAMES KRIKORIAN:<\/strong> Congratulations on your new position with IWPR. In that\u00a0capacity, what brings you back to Yerevan?<\/p>\n
THOMAS DE WAAL:<\/strong> In collaboration with the new Caucasian Media Institute\u00a0set up by Mark Grigorian and Vicken Cheterian, I’m here to take part in\u00a0a training seminar for young journalists from Armenia and Karabagh.<\/p>\n
Basically, I’ve been involved with that, talking to journalists,\u00a0refreshing my impressions, and seeing my friends here.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
OJK:<\/strong> Will you be doing the same in Georgia and Azerbaijan?<\/p>\n
TDW:<\/strong> I was in Georgia and Abkhazia a couple of months ago and I’m off\u00a0to Azerbaijan at the end of May.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
OJK:<\/strong> Let’s talk about your book, Black Garden, which follows one\u00a0on Chechnya co-authored with Carlotta Gall in 1997. Why Nagorno\u00a0Karabagh?<\/p>\n
TDW:<\/strong> Well, I suppose a flippant answer would be that as I was sitting\u00a0in London working for the BBC and getting a bit bored, I decided to\u00a0write a few grant proposals to see if anyone would fund me to research a\u00a0book on Karabagh. The US Institute of Peace came up with the money.<\/p>\n
However, why was I interested in writing a book on Karabagh? Well, I had\u00a0been to the region a couple of times and was aware that there really was\u00a0nothing in English, or in any language for that matter, that looked at\u00a0the conflict from both sides. Instead, there were quite a few\u00a0propagandist books, or one sided books to be kinder, which looked at the\u00a0conflict from only one perspective.<\/p>\n
Both sides were living in alternate realities and it was an intellectual\u00a0and personal challenge to go back to the beginning of the conflict in\u00a01988 to see if I could come up with an outsider’s view of why the\u00a0conflict started and what’s happened since. I suppose that if you can\u00a0understand the symptoms of the disease, you can possibly find a cure.<\/p>\n
The problem with Karabagh has been that too many people have suggested\u00a0solutions for the conflict without really understanding the symptoms.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
OJK:<\/strong> Regarding partisan books, are you just referring to Armenian and\u00a0Azeri authors or those by writers such as Thomas Goltz, for example, who\u00a0really only presented “Azerbaijan Diaries” as an account of his\u00a0experience on the other side of the contact line.<\/p>\n
TDW:<\/strong> Thomas Goltz is a friend of mine and I think his book on\u00a0Azerbaijan is absolutely tremendous. However, and I think he would admit\u00a0this too, he saw the war from the other side which inevitably colours\u00a0what he writes.<\/p>\n
Despite this, I think that his book tells you an enormous amount about\u00a0Azerbaijan and how society, corruption and everything else in the\u00a0Caucasus operates. All of that is in the book but it doesn’t actually\u00a0tell you that much about the war in Karabagh.<\/p>\n
In my opinion, the conflict was all about a very fundamental\u00a0misunderstanding between Armenians and Azerbaijanis. It was about their\u00a0own identity and fears vis-\u00e0-vis each other, and their own perceptions\u00a0of history. To understand that, you need to talk to both sides, and\u00a0that’s what I’ve done.<\/p>\n
Interestingly enough, in that capacity I became a bit of an informal\u00a0postman. I took messages back and forth between Azerbaijan and Karabagh\u00a0and between friends living in Yerevan and Baku. I even managed to link\u00a0up people who lost contact because of the war.<\/p>\n
On a personal level, I was someone who was repairing a tiny bit of the\u00a0damage done by this conflict, and I was constantly struck by how much\u00a0Armenians and Azerbaijanis have in common. In fact, many would jokingly\u00a0remark that they were on better terms with each other than with the\u00a0Georgians.<\/p>\n
As a result, many very good friendships were blown apart by the conflict\u00a0including, bizarrely enough, a man who used to work in the Komsomol in\u00a0Shusha [Shushi] who’s now in exile in Baku. He used to be a friend of\u00a0Serzh Sarkisyan and Robert Kocharian and had fond memories of both.<\/p>\n
He even produced a photograph taken with Robert Kocharian sitting at a\u00a0caf\u00e9 in Yalta in 1986, and he wasn’t bluffing either. After an interview\u00a0with Serzh Sarkisyan I mentioned his name, and he had fond memories\u00a0too. Even on that level there were friendships.<\/p>\n
There’s another story that didn’t end up in the book because it’s such a\u00a0complicated account, but the short of it is that there are still quite a\u00a0lot of Armenian women, mainly the wives or widows of Azeris, living\u00a0quietly in Baku. Most have Azeri names.<\/p>\n
There was one [Armenian] woman who had all sorts of problems in\u00a0Azerbaijan. Her [Azeri] husband died but she stayed in Baku because her\u00a0children were effectively Azeri. After many problems, her daughter ended\u00a0up losing her job in a bank when someone suspected her of being\u00a0Armenian.<\/p>\n
They fled to Iran and the Dashnaks helped them with money to get to\u00a0Armenia. They had to leave Azerbaijan because the children were having\u00a0problems, but when they arrived in Armenia the children had problems\u00a0with neighbours and at school because they were accused of being\u00a0Turkish.<\/p>\n
They lost out both ways, even though they were cosmopolitan. Instead of\u00a0it being a blessing it was a curse, and it’s almost as though you come\u00a0up with this conundrum. If people were getting on so well, why did they\u00a0end up fighting a war with each other?<\/p>\n
This wasn’t a war imposed from above; it was a war that came from below.\u00a0There are obviously many reasons for this, but I think that the\u00a0intellectuals from the soviet era have a lot to answer for.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
OJK:<\/strong> They say that there’s as many as 20,000 Armenians (mainly women that married Azeris or who are children of mixed marriages)<\/em> in Baku, and the US State Department recently reported\u00a0that there were something like 300 Azeris in Yerevan. They keep a low\u00a0profile but are they more open about this in Baku?<\/p>\n
TDW:<\/strong> The dynamics are different. I think that it’s a paradox on the\u00a0one hand because Azerbaijan is more of a mixed, cosmopolitan society and\u00a0Armenians can operate a bit more freely there. On the other hand, ethnic\u00a0propaganda against the Armenians is stronger in Azerbaijan.<\/p>\n
That might have something to do with Azerbaijan being the losing side in\u00a0the war and that the wounds are still fresh, but it is true that there\u00a0are Armenian women in Baku. However, I think that this has a lot to do\u00a0with the nature of the city.<\/p>\n
It’s always been international with many Russians, Jews and Armenians\u00a0living there as well as Azerbaijanis. Russian was always the main\u00a0language spoken but even that has been changing over the past few years,\u00a0and Baku is becoming less cosmopolitan and more of an Azeri city.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
OJK:<\/strong> Is your book also going to be full of stories like this, or is\u00a0it just a chronological account of the conflict?<\/p>\n
\u00a0TDW:<\/strong> I aim to tell the story from 1988 to the present day although it\u00a0also includes snippets of personal reportage from people I’ve met along\u00a0the way. It’s an attempt to be counter-factual so as to debug the myths\u00a0in circulation on either side.<\/p>\n
For example, I write about the role Armenians played in Baku and about\u00a0how Yerevan used to be a largely Muslim city in the nineteenth\u00a0century. I write about how Sayat Nova wrote many of his songs in Azeri\u00a0even though there’s this misconception among Armenians that Azerbaijan\u00a0didn’t exist before the twentieth century.<\/p>\n
In fact, Sayat Nova wrote a lot of his songs in a language that’s now\u00a0recognized as being Azerbaijani, it just wasn’t called that. It was\u00a0called Turkish or whatever. However, it was Turkish of a Caucasian\u00a0variety that wasn’t from Turkey.<\/p>\n
It was basically what we now call Azeri so the book will write a\u00a0different history of the Caucasus. Many people won’t like this but as\u00a0I’m only one journalist, they can ignore me if they want to.<\/p>\n
It’s a modest attempt on my part to suggest that things were different,\u00a0that they didn’t have to be like this, and that they could be different\u00a0again.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
OJK:<\/strong> I would imagine that a journalist researching what is still a\u00a0sensitive issue would be treated with some suspicion. Did you encounter\u00a0any obstacles?<\/p>\n
TDW:<\/strong> Surprisingly few. Unfortunately, I didn’t get to interview\u00a0Heidar Aliyev, but apart from that, I interviewed pretty much all the\u00a0major politicians such as Levon Ter Petrosian, Robert Kocharian, Arkhady\u00a0Ghukasian, Serzh Sarkisyan and quite a lot of senior people on the Azeri\u00a0side such as Ayaz Mutalibov.<\/p>\n
I didn’t get to talk to Elchibey because he died just as I was about to\u00a0interview him. Most were quite happy to be given the chance to put their\u00a0side of the story across.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
OJK:<\/strong> From speaking with you in the past, although I don’t know what\u00a0you’ve written, I think it will be an interesting book. However, there\u00a0will be references to events that are not widely spoken about and which\u00a0are hotly disputed by one side or the other. For example, you refer to\u00a0the death of two Azeris on the outskirts of Askeran before the pogroms\u00a0in Azerbaijan started.<\/p>\n
TDW:<\/strong> When did it all start? Both sides say it started with this\u00a0before then going back and saying it started with that. In fact, there\u00a0was actually violence in November 1987, three months before the\u00a0demonstrations in Stepanakert, when some Azeris started leaving\u00a0Kapan. It’s still not quite clear why they left but they turned up in\u00a0Baku in a shocked and miserable state. However, it is well known that\u00a0there was an incident in Askeran when a crowd moved from Aghdam to\u00a0Stepanakert and two Azeris were killed.<\/p>\n
What is less well written about is how 200,000 Azerbaijan left Armenia\u00a0between 1988 and 1989. The majority of them left peacefully, but the\u00a0rest were driven out in pretty much the clothes they were wearing. Then\u00a0of course, 350,000 Armenians left Azerbaijan and everybody knows about\u00a0the horrible things that happened in Baku and Sumgait and obviously, I\u00a0go over that in my book.<\/p>\n
There are no angels in this conflict and it is one of the symptoms of an\u00a0ethnic dispute when both sides seek to portray themselves as the\u00a0innocent victim. It justifies every act of aggression as being in\u00a0self-defense, but I’m afraid that’s a bit of a myth.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
OJK:<\/strong> When you say that some people won’t like the book you’re\u00a0referring to both Armenians and Azeris?<\/p>\n
TDW:<\/strong> Yes, and I think that a lot of the propaganda is repeated out of\u00a0habit. However, if you speak seriously to both sides, they acknowledge\u00a0that the whole conflict is a tragedy and that both sides committed acts\u00a0of savagery.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
OJK:<\/strong> Has any of your research for the book given you grounds for\u00a0optimism?<\/p>\n
TDW:<\/strong> Well, yes, in that the sense that Armenians and Azeris aren’t\u00a0like the Israelis and Palestinians. For example, Armenians and\u00a0Azerbaijanis have far more in common with each other than they do with\u00a0me, and there is intermarriage and connections in terms of culture.<\/p>\n
In that sense, there is optimism but unfortunately, what has happened is\u00a0that the Karabagh dispute has taken a grasp of the soul of both nations\u00a0in the past ten years, if I can put it like that. The authorities still\u00a0repeat to their people in subtle ways that it is impossible to exist\u00a0without Karabagh.<\/p>\n
In Armenia, it’s a great victory, and in Azerbaijan, it’s a great wound.\u00a0Somehow, there’s no sign of getting over that. There’s no attempt to see\u00a0Karabagh as a bridge, as somewhere that can be shared, or as a\u00a0crossroads. Were we to get into that position I can see that both\u00a0Armenians and Azerbaijanis could get on quite well.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
OJK:<\/strong> Let’s turn to the peace process. Researching your book happened\u00a0to coincide with various new endeavours to resolve the Karabagh conflict\u00a0and you even crossed the contact line with the OSCE mediators last\u00a0year. After 11 September, do you think that there’s a new move by the US\u00a0to find a solution to the Karabagh conflict?<\/p>\n
TDW:<\/strong> I don’t actually. Basically, the Americans and the Russians have\u00a0been working quite closely on this issue for the past two or three\u00a0years. September 11 actually drew them closer together on other issues\u00a0but on Karabagh they had already been cooperating.<\/p>\n
Russia had been meddling, interfering and being difficult on the issue\u00a0until 1998 but now it does not stand in the way of a settlement. Maybe\u00a0there are some in the Russian military that would still like to obstruct\u00a0the process, but the politicians want to see it resolved.<\/p>\n
In a way, maybe the two conflicting sides are very lucky to have\u00a0America, Russia and France so actively involved. The problem is that the\u00a0internal pressures against a settlement are far greater than anything\u00a0external.<\/p>\n
Resolution of the conflict is something you just can’t impose because\u00a0public opinion is still largely sceptical of an agreement. The two\u00a0leaderships are too cautious and cynical to start talking peace when\u00a0they can continue with the language of nationalism and propaganda.<\/p>\n
That’s particularly true in Azerbaijan where the political process is\u00a0now getting used to the idea of the end of the Aliyev regime. Last year,\u00a0Russia, America and France were pushing very hard and so you can’t chide\u00a0them with not being interested in peace. However, it all came to nothing\u00a0when the two presidents started to consult with other political forces\u00a0when they returned from Key West.<\/p>\n
They just didn’t really have it in them to make the big push within\u00a0their own societies for a peace settlement. Having not done that last\u00a0year, we’re now entering a new political cycle where both leaders are\u00a0more vulnerable. Presidential elections are coming up in the next year\u00a0or two, and probably a change of regime in Azerbaijan.<\/p>\n
Basically, I think that the whole thing is off the agenda for the next\u00a0three or four years.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
OJK:<\/strong> Although this is going off the topic of your book, when we speak\u00a0about Russian and US friendship after 11 September, the Americans do\u00a0seem to have ruffled a few feathers with an increased presence in the\u00a0Caucasus. When we spoke about this recently, you suggested that any\u00a0disagreements might emerge over Georgia rather than Karabagh.<\/p>\n
The Americans have already established a small military presence in\u00a0Georgia, and it could be argued that an even smaller presence has been\u00a0established in Armenia with the opening of the demining center in\u00a0Etchmiadzin. Azerbaijan also appears very eager to attract the United\u00a0States into its territory.<\/p>\n
TDW:<\/strong> There are several issues here. I think that Georgia is quite\u00a0distinct in some ways from Armenia and Azerbaijan. For Russia, it is\u00a0much more strategically important because they share a border, and\u00a0Georgia is right next door to Chechnya.<\/p>\n
There are Russian bases there, and Abkhazia is an issue that the Russian\u00a0military cares a lot about. There’s also the issue of Shevardnadze which\u00a0is one of the few issues that polarizes the Russians and Americans.<\/p>\n
For many in America and also Germany, Shevardnadze can do no wrong. They\u00a0like him for what he did at the end of the cold war and there are quite\u00a0a few people in Moscow that dislike him for precisely the same\u00a0reasons. That’s polarized the Russians and the Americans in such a way\u00a0that they can’t really work together in Georgia.<\/p>\n
The arrival of American military advisors in the Pankisi Gorge is a\u00a0classic example of Russian and American ambitions particular to Georgia\u00a0which I think is rather unhealthy and perhaps even childish. I think\u00a0that in Armenia and Azerbaijan, the Russians and the Americans can\u00a0actually get along fine.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
OJK:<\/strong> However, there is talk of US military assistance to Azerbaijan\u00a0being spent on improving its naval capacity. The argument being put\u00a0forward is that it’s a way to prevent possible confrontations with Iran\u00a0in the Caspian. This suggests that there is an attempt to extend\u00a0American influence in the Caucasus. Something seems to be afoot.<\/p>\n
TDW:<\/strong> I think that there’s possibly something afoot after 11 September\u00a0because Washington now thinks that they have carte blanche to do what\u00a0they like. They’ve been acting with this breathtaking self-confidence,\u00a0which some would call arrogance, all over the place.<\/p>\n
However, because the strategic military alliance between Armenia and\u00a0Russia is so strong, and because the Armenian economy is incredibly\u00a0dependent on Russia, there’s no way that Armenia is going to turn its\u00a0back on Russia.<\/p>\n
The United States has its own interests in Armenia through the Diaspora\u00a0and so on, and I think the two can get along fine. The same is true in\u00a0Azerbaijan. There’s a thaw in relations between Aliyev and Putin, and\u00a0Azerbaijan is quite strongly pro-American.<\/p>\n
With Iran, there could be a problem but I think that the Americans\u00a0understand that both Armenia and Azerbaijan will have to deal with Iran\u00a0given that it’s their neighbour. I also think that there are many people\u00a0in Washington who would like to deal with Iran and they thought that the\u00a0moment had come after 11 September. However, it was taken away from them\u00a0when Bush made his State of the Union address.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
OJK:<\/strong> Let’s come back to the Karabagh negotiations. Many in the\u00a0Diaspora don’t seem to think that there is conflict anymore. Therefore,\u00a0this is peace. Why can’t it be like this?<\/p>\n
TDW:<\/strong> You just have to visit Azerbaijan to realize that there are a\u00a0lot of people who lost their homes in the Karabagh conflict. If we\u00a0forget about those who left in the pre-soviet period, there are around\u00a0half a million people who lost their homes in Karabagh and the seven\u00a0regions surrounding it.<\/p>\n
Some have assimilated into society and others have left for abroad, but\u00a0an awful lot of them are living in very miserable conditions, either in\u00a0tents or in schools, hostels and makeshift accommodation. You can argue\u00a0that the Azerbaijani government is artificially keeping them there but\u00a0in a sense, that’s missing the point.<\/p>\n
These people have homes that they want to return to. Azerbaijan is a\u00a0wounded nation and Armenians should really take that into account. These\u00a0wounds won’ t heal and in order to deal with Azerbaijan in the future\u00a0you have to understand that.<\/p>\n
We’re talking about several generations of people who lived in one\u00a0place, went to work, their children went to school, and they were driven\u00a0out of their homes. It would be unreasonable to expect them to be\u00a0reconciled to that situation.<\/p>\n
It’s one thing about how you go about negotiations, but there are blind\u00a0spots on both sides. Azerbaijan fails to understand the security and\u00a0cultural concerns of Armenians living in Karabagh and Armenians tend to\u00a0forget the hundreds of thousands of Azeris that fled their homes.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
OJK:<\/strong> Some elderly refugees living in Armenia still hope to return to\u00a0Baku although some would argue that it’s crazy for anyone to return to\u00a0what might be a volatile situation. However, what we’re talking about is\u00a0simply the right for refugees to return if they want to, isn’t it?<\/p>\n
TDW:<\/strong> I think that it’s unrealistic to expect Armenians to return to\u00a0Azerbaijan or the Azerbaijanis to return to Armenia. Both nations have\u00a0filled the gap since they left, and certainly filled the\u00a0houses. However, the right to return is more enforceable when we’re\u00a0talking about people in and around Karabagh, and that also refers to\u00a0Armenians from the Shahumian region.<\/p>\n
I don’t think that anyone in Armenia expects to hold on to places like\u00a0Fizuli, Aghdam and Jebrail. In every attempt at a settlement since 1994,\u00a0these areas were negotiable and so yes, these people will have the right\u00a0to return. The problem is that their homes are now completely levelled\u00a0and even if they do get the opportunity, it might take ten or twenty\u00a0years before they do actually return.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
OJK:<\/strong> A phased approach for settling of the conflict has been\u00a0mentioned on numerous occasions, although the Armenian side still\u00a0favours a package agreement. This would include the return of some\u00a0territory and the necessity to build up trust between the conflicting\u00a0parties.<\/p>\n
In a sense, I’ve begun to suspect that it’s already started with more\u00a0international money being made available for confidence building\u00a0measures. There’s more interaction between Armenian and Azerbaijani\u00a0journalists, and politicians from both sides are visiting each other.<\/p>\n
Another key area where people talk about everyone having something in\u00a0common is business. It will be a very long process, but has it already\u00a0started?<\/p>\n
TDW:<\/strong> I think that it has started but that the signs are pretty\u00a0discouraging in the sense that the media in Armenia and Azerbaijan, and\u00a0particularly the latter, is still very intolerant. In Azerbaijan, there\u00a0are some very aggressive calls for the liberation of Karabagh and the\u00a0prosecution of Kocharian for war crimes.<\/p>\n
There’s also concern in Azerbaijan that any contact with the Armenians\u00a0might stabilize the status quo, but with regards to the issue of a\u00a0phased agreement, I was speaking to Arkhady Ghukasian about this only\u00a0yesterday. His response was simply that he had no confidence in\u00a0Azerbaijan and that it was inconvenient to undermine Karabagh’s security\u00a0by redrawing the frontline when nobody knows where it will lead.<\/p>\n
I think that this is a circular argument and that both sides need to\u00a0make a courageous step towards each other. While I can understand the\u00a0scepticism, you have to start somewhere and it needn’t be that\u00a0risky. You could, for example, open the road between Armenia and\u00a0Nakhichevan, which is suffering more than Armenia. Nakhichevan talks\u00a0about the blockade but in their case, it’s a blockade by Armenia.<\/p>\n
If you opened up that road it would benefit both sides and then perhaps,\u00a0a few Azeri villages on the frontline could be given back as a gesture\u00a0of goodwill. We’re talking about something very small on the ground\u00a0which would breathe a bit of life into the peace process and encourage a\u00a0small amount of trust.<\/p>\n
I met the mayor of Nakhichevan who used to go to Yerevan rather than\u00a0Baku in order to fly to Moscow during the soviet years. He was one of\u00a0the few Azerbaijani officials who spoke openly about the peace process\u00a0because it would directly benefit Nakhichevan.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
OJK:<\/strong> While you were researching of your book, you made friends on all\u00a0sides of the conflict. In that context, are you depressed or optimistic\u00a0about the future?<\/p>\n
TDW:<\/strong> I do feel depressed in that I don’t really see a way out, and\u00a0although many people do want to see a settlement, they still don’t\u00a0really understand the need to compromise. They instead tend to talk\u00a0about victory rather than peace.<\/p>\n
They want a way out but they’re still rather naive about it. However, I\u00a0don’ t necessarily blame them because there is the complete lack of\u00a0public debate in society about what is realistic. On the other hand, and\u00a0I constantly make this point, you can speak to one person and hear many\u00a0contradictory views.<\/p>\n
You can listen to one person speaking triumphantly or angrily about\u00a0their land being taken by the Armenians, or the liberation of territory\u00a0from the Azerbaijanis, but then they speak about their friends on the\u00a0other side. They speak about the need for trade and business, and how\u00a0they meet their friend Ashot or Aziz whenever they visit Moscow.<\/p>\n
So, there are all sorts of layers of reaction in the same people and I\u00a0think it’s important to keep those memories alive. While those aspects\u00a0of humanity are still there, there’s still hope.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
OJK:<\/strong> I think that your book will make interesting reading. When can\u00a0we expect it?<\/p>\n
TDW:<\/strong> I’m speaking to my publishers, New York University Press, at the\u00a0moment and while I’d like it to come out tomorrow, it’s likely to be\u00a0published towards the end of the year or at the beginning of 2003.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
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Thomas de Waal is the Caucasus Editor and Project Coordinator for\u00a0the Institute of War and Peace Reporting (IWPR) in London.\u00a0Having covered the Caucasus for the BBC World Service, his book on\u00a0the conflict in Nagorno Karabagh, “Black Garden: Armenia and\u00a0Azerbaijan through Peace and War,” will be published by New York\u00a0University Press in late 2002\/early 2003. […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":2464,"parent":0,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"nf_dc_page":"","_et_pb_use_builder":"on","_et_pb_old_content":"","_et_gb_content_width":"","twitterCardType":"","cardImageID":0,"cardImage":"","cardTitle":"","cardDesc":"","cardImageAlt":"","cardPlayer":"","cardPlayerWidth":0,"cardPlayerHeight":0,"cardPlayerStream":"","cardPlayerCodec":"","footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-2768","page","type-page","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\n
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